Post by Velaryon on Jun 10, 2010 19:16:31 GMT -5
The way it is now, there are two ways you can permanently lose a level in D&D:
1. You are raised from the dead by a spell such as Raise Dead, bringing you back to life one level lower than you were.
2. You are hit by an attack that gives negative levels (a temporary penalty), and then fail the Fort save to remove them the next day, resulting in permanent level loss.
I have a problem with permanent loss of levels. First of all, not even Greater Restoration (a 7th-level spell) can restore them. Second, only:
True Resurrection (a 9th level spell),
Revenance (4th level cleric, 4th level paladin, or 6th level bard spell which is only temporary), and
Revivify (5th level cleric spell which must be cast within 1 round of a character's death and still leaves them incapacitated)
can raise someone without losing a level. Revivify and Revenance, though they work well together and are clearly intended to do so, are not viable solutions in a campaign such as ours where there is no cleric in the party. That leaves True Resurrection, which is only available from a cleric of at least 17th level. And obviously, those are not particularly common.
Now, I'm not really a fan of the "revolving door afterlife" thing, where as long as you've got someone to cast a spell you get to come back to life as many times as someone can pay for the spell to be cast. It does sorta cheapen death to the point where many of the more metagaming-inclined people on the Wizards of the Coast forums will say that a character's life is literally worth 5,000 gp.
But by the same token, I've never cared for the idea that a character's hard-earned levels can be taken away from them, because not only does it not really make sense to me but it feels like a pointless screwjob that doesn't add to the game in any way. I would love to find some other limiting factor for character resurrection, some way that death can retain its meaning without stripping away hard-earned character levels.
But being raised from the dead is not the only way to lose a level. Remember that thing I said before about negative levels?
A negative level, for those who don't remember or haven't read the rules in awhile, is sort of a quick-and-easy way to approximate losing a level.
A negative level gives you:
-1 on all attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and skill checks
-5 hit points
-1 effective level for anything that measures by your level
-1 spell of the highest level you can cast
Negative levels remain for 24 hours or until removed with a Restoration spell. After 24 hours, assuming no spell has been cast in that time, a character must make a Fort save, the DC of which is based on the attacker's Charisma modifier and Hit Die, or the negative level becomes a permanent level lost.
One level lost is bad enough, but what happens if a character is toting multiple negative levels? It could easily happen after a battle with the wrong kind of undead, or being hit by certain necromancy spells. A character inflicted with mulitple negative levels has to make a separate save to remove each one, and every time they fail and lose a permanent level, their save bonuses against the next one become even lower.
This seems even more cruel, arbitrary, and spiteful than losing a level to come back from the dead. It also makes me very reluctant to use any monster, spell, or other thing which might cause negative levels for fear that the players will lose a level simply for one low roll on a d20.
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So I think that outlines the problem pretty well, yes? Here's what I propose to do about it.
First, the easier of the two problems is the negative levels inflicted by monsters, spells, or other sources. I propose that we change the rule so that if you fail the saving throw, rather than lose a permanent level you're stuck with the negative level for another 24 hours, at which point you can save again to try and remove it. Again, you make a separate saving throw for each negative level.
Second, regarding character death: I propose that coming back from the dead in any way which would normally result a permanent level loss (such as a Raise Dead spell) instead brings you back at your normal level, but with a number of negative levels equal to 1/2 your character level, rounded up. Negative levels incurred in this way cannot be restored even by Greater Restoration, and must be healed by the normal means, a Fort save every 24 hours until successful.
1st level characters do not gain a negative level after being raised, because having one would instantly kill them. So instead, they lose 1 point of Constitution, that can be regained only by the same method as above with the negative levels.
For example, everyone's favorite pink paladin Rodney Lockhart is level 3 (his actual level is higher, but for the purposes of this example he is level 3). He is killed in combat by Leon who is finally sick and tired of that damn "Honey Pie" song.
Rodney is later raised from the dead by a friendly cleric using a Raise Dead spell. According to the formula above, he gains 2 negative levels (because 1/2 of 3 is 1.5, which rounds up to 2), which he can only remove by making a Fort save of DC (10 + 1/2 Leon's hit die + Leon's Cha modifier). A level 1 character who is raised in this way gains no negative level because having one would instantly kill him.
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So I know that was a very long post and I thank you if you read it all the way through. What do you think of this idea? Should we adopt it, does it need some changes, or is it a horrible, stupid idea that I should be ashamed for even thinking of?
1. You are raised from the dead by a spell such as Raise Dead, bringing you back to life one level lower than you were.
2. You are hit by an attack that gives negative levels (a temporary penalty), and then fail the Fort save to remove them the next day, resulting in permanent level loss.
I have a problem with permanent loss of levels. First of all, not even Greater Restoration (a 7th-level spell) can restore them. Second, only:
True Resurrection (a 9th level spell),
Revenance (4th level cleric, 4th level paladin, or 6th level bard spell which is only temporary), and
Revivify (5th level cleric spell which must be cast within 1 round of a character's death and still leaves them incapacitated)
can raise someone without losing a level. Revivify and Revenance, though they work well together and are clearly intended to do so, are not viable solutions in a campaign such as ours where there is no cleric in the party. That leaves True Resurrection, which is only available from a cleric of at least 17th level. And obviously, those are not particularly common.
Now, I'm not really a fan of the "revolving door afterlife" thing, where as long as you've got someone to cast a spell you get to come back to life as many times as someone can pay for the spell to be cast. It does sorta cheapen death to the point where many of the more metagaming-inclined people on the Wizards of the Coast forums will say that a character's life is literally worth 5,000 gp.
But by the same token, I've never cared for the idea that a character's hard-earned levels can be taken away from them, because not only does it not really make sense to me but it feels like a pointless screwjob that doesn't add to the game in any way. I would love to find some other limiting factor for character resurrection, some way that death can retain its meaning without stripping away hard-earned character levels.
But being raised from the dead is not the only way to lose a level. Remember that thing I said before about negative levels?
A negative level, for those who don't remember or haven't read the rules in awhile, is sort of a quick-and-easy way to approximate losing a level.
A negative level gives you:
-1 on all attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and skill checks
-5 hit points
-1 effective level for anything that measures by your level
-1 spell of the highest level you can cast
Negative levels remain for 24 hours or until removed with a Restoration spell. After 24 hours, assuming no spell has been cast in that time, a character must make a Fort save, the DC of which is based on the attacker's Charisma modifier and Hit Die, or the negative level becomes a permanent level lost.
One level lost is bad enough, but what happens if a character is toting multiple negative levels? It could easily happen after a battle with the wrong kind of undead, or being hit by certain necromancy spells. A character inflicted with mulitple negative levels has to make a separate save to remove each one, and every time they fail and lose a permanent level, their save bonuses against the next one become even lower.
This seems even more cruel, arbitrary, and spiteful than losing a level to come back from the dead. It also makes me very reluctant to use any monster, spell, or other thing which might cause negative levels for fear that the players will lose a level simply for one low roll on a d20.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I think that outlines the problem pretty well, yes? Here's what I propose to do about it.
First, the easier of the two problems is the negative levels inflicted by monsters, spells, or other sources. I propose that we change the rule so that if you fail the saving throw, rather than lose a permanent level you're stuck with the negative level for another 24 hours, at which point you can save again to try and remove it. Again, you make a separate saving throw for each negative level.
Second, regarding character death: I propose that coming back from the dead in any way which would normally result a permanent level loss (such as a Raise Dead spell) instead brings you back at your normal level, but with a number of negative levels equal to 1/2 your character level, rounded up. Negative levels incurred in this way cannot be restored even by Greater Restoration, and must be healed by the normal means, a Fort save every 24 hours until successful.
1st level characters do not gain a negative level after being raised, because having one would instantly kill them. So instead, they lose 1 point of Constitution, that can be regained only by the same method as above with the negative levels.
For example, everyone's favorite pink paladin Rodney Lockhart is level 3 (his actual level is higher, but for the purposes of this example he is level 3). He is killed in combat by Leon who is finally sick and tired of that damn "Honey Pie" song.
Rodney is later raised from the dead by a friendly cleric using a Raise Dead spell. According to the formula above, he gains 2 negative levels (because 1/2 of 3 is 1.5, which rounds up to 2), which he can only remove by making a Fort save of DC (10 + 1/2 Leon's hit die + Leon's Cha modifier). A level 1 character who is raised in this way gains no negative level because having one would instantly kill him.
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So I know that was a very long post and I thank you if you read it all the way through. What do you think of this idea? Should we adopt it, does it need some changes, or is it a horrible, stupid idea that I should be ashamed for even thinking of?
